Klein Flintbek, Schleswig-Holstein Church Records

[gailabe]

Requesting help with locating a marriage record in Flintbek.

My 2nd Great Grandfather, Claus Heinrich Greve, born 30 June 1829 in Flintbek was married in 1859 in Altona, Hamburg.  The marriage church record from St. Trinitatis in Altona states he was the legitimate son of Hans Detlev Greve and Catherine Margaretha, nee Delfs from Klein Flintbek.   I also found the engagement record from the same church.

After searching the Flintbek Church records on Archion for his parents,  I found the baptism and confirmation for Claus Heinrich in Flintbek.  However, the baptism record only has his father's name, Hans Detlev Greve, no mother was noted in the record. Other baptisms on that page did list both parents' names.  The confirmation record only lists the father, but all confirmations on that page only listed the fathers.  I searched the marriages and engagement records in Flintbek, but did not find a marriage record between Hans Detlev Greve and Catherine Margaretha Delfs.  I did find a burial record for Hans Detlev in March 1832, but could not find Catherine's burial. There was another baptism of a child with the father Hans Detlev and no mother listed in June 1832.  This record said the father was the deceased Hans Detlev Greve.  

Claus Heinrich's marriage record state he was the legitimate son and also noted Catherine Margaretha's maiden name.   I believe this shows that the parents were married.  

Does anyone know why a mother would not be listed on a baptism record?  I would appreciate any thoughts on this or suggestions on where else to search for Catherine Margaretha Delfs and her marriage to Hans Detlev Greve.  Thank you!

[BobGreiner]

Gail,
I took a look at the Flintbek church records and must agree that I found no marriage record for Hans Detlev Greve. It is unusual that his wife was not mentioned in the two baptism records. In confirmation records it is more frequently the case that only the father's name is mentioned.

I noted a few more things. A Hans Detlev Greve married in 1805. His wife died in 1815 at age 37, noting that she had four children. Hans Detlev remarried later the same year. He and his second wife had a son born in March 1826, but who died at 8 weeks of age. (There may be more children; I did not scan the records for them.)

Hans Detlev's parents were mentioned in his first marriage record. I was able to find their marriage in 1766 and four children born through 1876. None of them was Hans Detlev. There is a gap in children between 1769 and 1774, with no apparent birth records for them in between. Based on the birth date of Hans Detlev's first wife (which I found in 1778, my guess is that he was born either after 1775, or perhaps in the missing years. I did check a few of the nearby villages, but did not find a baptism record for him. Assuming a birth year 1bout 1777, he would have been about 55 years old when he died.

I must admit it is a bit strange. In addition to the wife not being mentioned, as a life long member of the village, why didn't the pastor enter more details about him in the death record? At first glance I might suggest that age 50+, that perhaps he had not married Catharina Margaretha Delfs. Maybe she was much younger. I did not come across a baptism record for her, although there are many Delfs in the village. She could have been born anywhere between 1775 and 1805. But then, when Claus Heinrich married the record said he was a legitimate son.

The younger brother born in 1832, Jürgen Hinrich, was also found in the confirmation records in 1848. Again, only the father was listed.

Note that in Claus Heinrich's marriage record, both the parents were noted as deceased. His mother may have died in Flintbek, or perhaps moved with him to Altona? Or perhaps when her sons came of age, she moved back to another village that may have been her birthplace. I could not find her death in Flintbek either. For that matter, I could not find a death for Hans Detlev's second wife, after the early death of their son in 1826.

It seems as though there was something odd going on, which may be why the pastor chose not to mention the mother of the two children. Sorry I am not able to provide any better answers to the situation.

[BobGreiner]

Here is a summary of what I found in the Flintbek records.

Hans Hinrich Greef
m. 11 Oct 1766
Catharina Margretha Hincks
https://www.archion.de/p/ca2819db5f/
Children:
1. Eliz. Malehn, b. 1 Aug 1767
https://www.archion.de/p/01d5226b3e/
2. Anna Catharina, b. 24 Sep 1769
https://www.archion.de/p/ef0484aaba/
3. Johann Friedrich, b. 2 Feb 1774
https://www.archion.de/p/d661955b6e/
4. Clas, b. 9 Feb 1776
https://www.archion.de/p/1cb3d37b71/

Hans Detlef Greve
b. ?
m. 15 Nov 1805
f. Hans Hinrich
m. Catharina Margaretha Hingst
https://www.archion.de/p/1cb66d3f98/
Margaretha Magdalena Voss
b. 28 Mar 1778
f. Abraham Voss
m. Margaretha Schlotfeld
https://www.archion.de/p/28090e2795/
1. Anna Dorothea, b. 18 Jul 1807
2. Johann Friedrich, b. 13 Dec 1809
3. Catharina Magdalena, b. 3 Jul 1811
4. Detlev, b. 15 Mar 1813
Margaretha Magdalena Greve
d. 14 Apr 1815
age 37, left 4 children
https://www.archion.de/p/7ab021266e/

Wittwer Hans Detlev Greve
m. 8 Dec 1815
Magdalena Catharina Behmke
https://www.archion.de/p/630761efef/

Detlev Friedrich Greve
b. 21 Mar 1826
d. 8 weeks
f. Hans Detlev Greve
m. Magdalena Catharina Behmke

[gailabe]

Bob,

Sorry for my delay in replying as I was away. I really appreciate your time searching these ancestors and the links you provided!  I also thought it was odd that the death record for Hans Detlev had almost no information.  

A few weeks ago, I found a baptism record in the Altholstein Church Books/Flintbek (8 Nov 1813) of Catherine Margaretha Delfs from Molfsee, a town which is close to Flintbek.   She would have been very young having her child, Claus Heinrich, at age 15, if this is her.  I haven't been able to find Archion records for Molfsee.  When searching Molfsee on meyersgaz.org it showed the closest church was in Gross Flintbek and then Kiel.  I've attached the baptism record I found with the Archion link.  I cannot read German but try to pick out words to translate.  Would you be able to confirm that the last name is Delfs and any other pertinent information?

Catherine Margaretha Delfs
b. 8 Nov 1813
https://www.archion.de/p/77e2fb584a/

Thanks again for your help!

Gail

[BobGreiner]

Gail,
There are probably no separate records for Molfsee. Just as those for Klein Flintbek are included with Gross Flintbek, there was not always a church in the outlying villages.

Here is the transcription and translation for the baptism record. I suspect it is possible that she could be the mother of Claus Heinrich. That might explain the reluctance of the pastor to note a 15-year-old as the mother of a somewhat older man. However, that does not explain how Claus Heinrich could claim to be legitimate at his marriage.

-----
Schleswig-Holstein / Landeskirchliches Archiv der Evangelisch-Lutherischen Kirche in Norddeutschland / Kirchenkreis Altholstein / Flintbek / Taufen 1796-1821
1813, #62
8 / 14 November
Catharina Margaretha, ehel. Tochter des Hufmans in Molfsee Hartwig Delfs und der Margaretha Magdalena geb. Grotzmann (or Grutzmann).
Gev:  
1) Catharina Margaretha Delfs
2) Catharina Margaretha Gel (Gehl)? aus Molfsee
3) Maria Christina
Translation:
Born 8 November 1813
Baptized 14 November 1813
Catharina Margaretha, legitimate daughter of the farmer in Molfsee Hartwig Delfs and Margaretha Magdalena nèe Grotzmann (or Grutzmann).
Sponsors:
1) Catharina Margaretha Delfs
2) Catharina Margaretha Gel (Gehl)? aus Molfsee
3) Maria Christina

Note that a child of this couple died in March 1819. The given name was Catharina Magdalena, but her age was 5 1/2, putting her birth about November 1813.